On today’s episode we discuss how to use technology and data to better achieve organizational goals. The conversation is led by Colin Levy, legal tech influencer and Director of Legal and Evangelist at Malbek, and Taeler Gannuscia, Product Marketing Manager at Malbek. Beginning with one of his LinkedIn posts, Colin explains that technology is a tool for professionals to reach their goals. Tech can unlock data and offer valuable insights, but it all comes down to how people use it within their processes. Colin then explains how legal technology a tool for building collaborative relationships with other business functions and spearheading digital transformation across the organization. Colin finishes up by offering advice on how to be a data-driven technology advocate. So, grab a glass of wine, and let's talk contracts!
Colin:
Your role as the legal professional is not simply to provide legal advice, but really to be a business partner to these other functions and really contribute to the ongoing development growth of the business.
Intro:
Welcome to the Contract Lens Podcast, brought to you by Malbek. In this podcast, we have conversations with contract management thought leaders and practitioners about everything contracts and its ecosystem. Today's episode focuses on how to unlock contract data with the CLM and what it can mean for your organization. The conversation is led by Colin Levy, a passionate advocate for legal technology. He has negotiated hundreds of contracts and served as in-house council for a wide range of companies in various industries. Colin has devoted his career to educating and inspiring others about legal tech and it's constantly evolving landscape. So now it's time to relax, grab a glass of wine, and let's talk contracts.
Taeler:
Hi Colin. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Colin:
Thank you so much for having me as a guest. I'm thrilled to be here.
Taeler:
Yeah. We're thrilled to talk about data with you today, and also just the idea of using technology to better support contract management. And just leading into that, I have to say, you're kind of a big deal on LinkedIn. We all know this. And one of the topics that you post about the most is legal tech. So most recently, I just want to open it up, you posted about a caption that really stuck with me. So I'm just going to read it really quickly, and then I kind of want you to unpack it, if you will. So the post said, "Tech won't solve a people problem. Tech won't solve a culture problem. Tech won't solve all of your problems. Tech is a tool. Its impact depends on how you use it." So can you talk a little bit more about the role legal technology should play and how people can better support its use?
Colin:
Absolutely. So thank you for quoting me on that. That was something that really, I would say, governed much of how I think about technology in the context of the legal profession. So I really think technology can best be thought of as a set of tools in your toolbox, much like construction worker would have a set of tools in their toolbox, tech really is but one set of tools. So while the tools themselves are powerful, ultimately, the real power of the tools lies not just in the tools themselves, but in those who use the tools, meaning that if you are using a contract management tool or some other tool to help you do your job better, it kind of rests, in large part, upon you and your use of the tool in terms of the amount of benefit you get from it.
Colin:
Yeah, there's a lot that it can do, but you have to kind of teach it and corral it and get it to a place where it's providing the usefulness that you want out of it. It's not just going to provide that usefulness by simply just sitting there on your computer or in the cloud. It's really dependent on you using it as it's intended to be used.
Taeler:
I love that. And I like how you're kind of bringing this idea that it's about the practice that the tool supports, not really what the tool can do for you. It's not a magic wand, right? I think that's a really interesting idea. So thank you for your LinkedIn posts. The next thing I kind of want to dive into is just data. So that's kind of what this episode is about. And that's a big concept, so we're going to do our best to tackle it in 30 minutes. But we hear this word data all the time, and really, what we know is that it's simply not enough just to have it, right? So in order to really drive contract management forward in a meaningful way, legal teams need to be able to leverage it to build better contracts, right? So what are some of the key data points or metrics, if you will, that a CLM user can look to or track to improve business outcomes?
Colin:
So there are a lot of kind of key data points, I think, that are worth looking into. Some of them, quite frankly, are, I think, are very basic, but are nevertheless super important to track, such as the contract start date, the end date, the length of the contract. Another one that can be very useful for a business is tracking the value of the contract, because then you can over time kind of see whether the contract value that you've negotiated has been increased over time, which could be an indicator of good growth. Other key dates, I would say, that are useful to track are renewal dates, billing dates. In addition, I would also say that you want to be tracking sort of key obligations and rights, in other words, kind of what one party is obligated to do under the contract and by when and how and vice versa.
Colin:
So that is another key element. And also quite frankly, I think keeping track of commonly negotiated clauses, and that will allow you to better understand kind of why they're often negotiated once you see them coming up over and over, and that can perhaps lead to perhaps a rethinking of how to word the clause or draft it or even how to negotiate it. So there really are a lot of, I think, different elements within individual contracts that are worth tracking. It's really kind of, I think, dictated by what your overall contract management strategy is and what the ideal outcome of that strategy looks like.
Taeler:
Right. It's not a one size fit all, that's for sure. And I like how you're kind of, you're bringing in elements of looking backward at what has worked in the past so that you can make better decisions moving forward. That kind of reminds me, I saw something on the internet the other day, just as I was kind of reading through posts in the CLM space, and it kind of talked about how a great technology adopter requires a forward looking person. And they talked about how someone that is proactive and not just looking to fix problems of today, but finding a solution that can really scale to meet several business needs in the future.
Taeler:
But in my opinion, I think there's a strong need for technology that helps us kind of leverage the contracts of yesterday to improve the contracts of tomorrow. So it's almost like we have to look backward to move forward. Can you share your thoughts on the role of technology and just how it helps legal teams look backward to help them ultimately build better contracts? You kind of touched on it, but I would love it if you unpack that a little bit more.
Colin:
Yeah, absolutely. So as I was saying with respect to kind of commonly negotiated clauses, I think that technology can really help you determine what the key pain points in your agreements are, how much of an impact they're having on the timeframe of starting an agreement negotiation and then closing the deal. And that can allow you to, I think, kind of better understand sort of the way customers or potential customers are looking at your agreements and understand kind of what their concerns are with particular causes, and then perhaps think about redrafting those clauses to address those issues. That won't always work every time, but that could be potentially useful strategy to employ. I also think that oftentimes, getting contract management tools to understand that most common types of contracts you have in terms of common values, common contract length, other types of data that can inform you with respect to kind of your overall contracting function and help both the lawyer and the business professional understand kind of, overall, the contracting life cycle and what's working and what's not.
Colin:
What I'm really getting at here, I think, is this concept of getting data out of your contracts and really being able to drive data that can drive decision making from your contracts, and technologies, like contract management tools, can really do a very great job of getting you that data that then can allow you to make more data driven decisions that are good, not just for the legal concerns that the legal function may have, but also for the business overall in terms of growing the business and continuing to build up that customer base.
Taeler:
Absolutely. Yeah. And I like how you talked about really pulling data out for other users as well, not just the legal team. And so, knowing that other teams need access to this data for it to really be put into action in a thoughtful way, what tips do you have for fostering your culture of collaboration around this?
Colin:
So I think the first step in fostering collaboration is listening. What I mean by that is, start by listening to what other business functions are saying, what they're doing, perhaps sit in on some other meetings, kind of understand how they're operating, what they're thinking about, and that will, I think, give you, the legal professional, a better understanding of kind of the business plan going forward and the strategy, and it will allow you to perhaps be a little more pro proactive.
Colin:
In addition, by actively engaging with these other functions, you're engaging in building relationships with these other functions. And those relationships can be really powerful and enabling collaboration, to a point where those other functions that are coming to you just to chat and get your ideas and input rather than just coming to you every time there's a problem and leaving it at that. So I really think it requires sort of not just a taking a proactive approach to learning more about the other functions and how they operate, but also being proactive and really kind of understanding that your role, as the legal professional, is not simply to provide legal advice, but really to be a business partner to these other functions and really contribute to the ongoing development and growth of the business.
Taeler:
Absolutely. Yeah. And we are seeing a shift. I think legal teams, whether in house or not, they really are seen as strategic business partners now. They're not operating in their own silo. And that is so important to remember that, that they need to listen and really be aware of other team's needs. So yeah, even though you have a strong legal background, you seem to be very good at creating a sense of community, even online. And that being said, what would you say to a leader who is having a really hard time receiving buy-in from their team when it comes to adopting a tool like a CLM? Do you have any advice for bringing people together around an initiative like this? Because it can be really hard to ask people to change the way they've been doing things for years.
Colin:
I think that you start by asking these people who seem resistant to change, why they like what they're doing currently, what it is about those current processes that they like, and also exploring what could be improved about those processes. Being able to kind of just get other people to talk about what they do, why they like it, and what they don't like about it is a really, I think, a good way to build rapport and build understanding, and can also inform you how to make the case that this new tool you want to have will not just address a problem that you want to be addressed, but also these problems that they want to be addressed as well.
Colin:
And I think another element of it is not just sitting around and listening to how others work and what they like about it and what they don't like, but also bringing them on board with respect to looking at potential new tools, having them sit in on demos, get an understanding, really, of what their perspective is on these new tools, what they like about them, what they don't like about them. And I think enabling and empowering these other function and making them feel like they're a part of the process, I think, is a great way to get them to build eventual support for whatever it is the final solution/tool ends up being.
Taeler:
Absolutely. You talk a lot about digital transformation. In your LinkedIn posts, I've seen you talk about that term a lot. And as we're talking about this, it just comes to mind. What does that term, digital transformation, really mean to you in the broader sense?
Colin:
It's funny, actually, I was reviewing a potential paper on digital transformation a few weeks ago. And I think really digital transformation is a bit of a misleading term, because yes, it involves digitization, yes, it involves technology, but in large part, digital transformation is about changing mindsets, changing cultures, changing perspectives, really kind of rethinking how we are managing our roles, our responsibilities, what we are supposed to be doing each day and why we're supposed to be doing those things. So I really think digital transformation is more about kind of just an overall shift in how we work and what we produce for others, as much as it is about technology and digitization and using data. And I think that often gets a little bit misunderstood or downplayed with respect to digital transformation. Often, the focus is very heavy on the digital side and not so much on the people side. And I really think both are critical to achieving a long lasting digital transformation. And oftentimes, it's more about the people, the process, and the culture than it is about the digital tools and technology.
Taeler:
Absolutely. And just as a subset to that, why do you think that scares people? Because let's be real, I mean, data brings... A data culture, let's say, brings a level of transparency that I think a lot of people aren't super comfortable with yet, right? So what is scary about that and why?
Colin:
So I think the key scary or the key fear with respect to digital transformation, I think, comes from a natural human instinct to resist change. Humans don't like change. They just don't. And I think that actually goes back to way back when our ancestors were roaming the earth and they went with what was comfortable, what they knew, what they were okay with, what they knew worked. And so that I think has translated over time to this kind of continuation of being where we're comfortable, of being where we feel like we know what we're doing and we are good at at what those things. And so asking people to, I think, make this kind of shift into a new process or use a new tool or think about something in a new way can be scary a little bit, because we may not all necessarily know what that will mean long term, other than we'll just be working in a different way.
Colin:
And that can be scary, because as I said before, we often are very comfortable with kind of where we are right now and don't want to move off of that island or that point where we are. And so asking people to kind of all of a sudden, I think, engage with change and experimentation, particularly in the legal industry, is quite challenging because we are naturally risk averse, even more so than, I would say, your everyday human being.
Colin:
And also, we kind of have been told that this is the way things are done and that's how they should always be done. And then I think that another element evolved here is just a outright fear of technology, a fear of, "Oh, well, tech is so intimidating. I know what I'm doing. I trust how I've done things the way I've done things for years. I don't want to change that. This computer doesn't understand what I'm trying to do." And so I think kind of overcoming that fear of technology and that sort of intimidation factor also plays into, I would say, the resistance to engaging in some of these transformation efforts.
Taeler:
Yeah. And while you were explaining that, I couldn't help but think of the use of AI. That's a huge hot topic right now and I think there's a lot of fear around that too. I think there's a lot of misinformation, if you will, about what AI really is and the role it really plays. And I think that there is some fear that it will replace some of the work that we do. How do you see AI being a huge tool to lawyers that are really trying to harness their data?
Colin:
So here's the thing about AI. I think that the term often elicits people talking about robots or...
Taeler:
Yes.
Colin:
... machines kind of doing your job, when really kind of what we're talking about with respect to AI is being able to draw conclusions for massive amounts of data. And that's where the power of AI currently lies, is this ability to take mounds and mounds of data and provide you with actionable insights and conclusions about that data. But otherwise, you wouldn't be able to draw upon or see if you were just looking at the data with your own two eyes. So I think that's really where the power comes from.
Colin:
I think another area where AI can be very helpful, quite frankly, is in automation, in terms of automating time consuming routine, standard tasks that you need to do every day, but don't really bring a whole lot of value to your role and that a relatively low risk and are things that you just know you have to do each and every day, but are not really all that, I would say, critical other than just needing to get done. And so really, being able to automate kind of some of these tasks allows you, as the professional, to spend more of your time on more, I would say, strategic work that allows you to bring more value to your role and to the business that you're working in.
Taeler:
Yeah, no, I completely agree. And it wouldn't be a podcast with me if we didn't sneak one controversial question in here, so I do have one. Are you ready?
Colin:
Always ready.
Taeler:
Okay, good. So all of this being said, we hear all the time that technology and the legal op space really saves time, it frees up lawyers, it streamlines projects and workflows. That's really the tagline, it saves time. But knowing that historically, lawyers have always charged by the hour, the infamous billable hour that we always hear about, how is technology kind of changing their pay structure? How is it changing the structure of the way they work? Is that why it's so scary?
Colin:
So that's an interesting question. Well, I could certainly go off on my views with respect to the billable hour, but I will just leave it at this, which is that I think the billable hour is a well known impediment to innovation, in deficiency and productivity. So I do think that there remains a bit of tension when it comes to technology and the billable hour. However, with that said, I think that technology and its rise and increasing use by legal professionals, I think, has brought about sort of a more critical eye by clients on exactly what they're paying for, who they're paying, and why, and how long it takes to get certain tasks done.
Colin:
And so I think what that has sort of precipitated is a rethinking, in large part, by many firms and other types of legal organizations about just exactly what they're doing, how they're doing, and thinking about perhaps providing other ways to build for work, whether it's project based or perhaps some mix of project based and hour based. And all of that is to say that I really think that technology has prompted a kind of a rethinking of the billable hour model and what that exactly means for the legal industry and for the clients going forward with respect to technology and its ability to get things done quicker, faster, and better.
Taeler:
Yeah, and that really is what technology is bringing about, is transparency. That's the real shift here, not just for internal teams, but for clients and other businesses that you're working with. And I like what you said about that. I think that's really impactful. So I also see that you have a real passion for talking to law students and really asking them where they want to go, helping them find their direction, because there are so many avenues now in this space. So if you had to give some advice about skills that are needed to be a modern day lawyer, what do you think those would be?
Colin:
So that's a big question. I think that some of the key sort of areas that I would focus on are: one, your ability to communicate clearly and be a collaborative person and build relationships with others with a degree of empathy and emotional intelligence. I think another area of focusing on would be your ability, not necessarily be sort of a tech expert, but have a basic awareness of the tech tools that could be potentially used for you and your practice and potentially useful for not just your department, but also for other functions as well. I think thirdly, it would be focus in on your ability to sort of bridge the gap between the tech and legal world and be able to show how technology can allow you, as a legal professional, to be more data driven, because business works off of data and the language of business is data. And your ability to speak that language, I think, has a correlation with your ability to be a business partner to those businesses that you work with and/or represent.
Taeler:
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for joining us today on the Contract Lens, Colin. Just for our listeners, where can they contact you or learn more about you?
Colin:
So I can be found in a bunch of different places. One is on LinkedIn.
Taeler:
He's everywhere.
Colin:
That is scary, but true. So I can be found on Twitter @clevy_law, that's that's C-L-E-V-Y underscore law. I can also be found on LinkedIn under my name, and you can also get in touch with me from my website, which I will be relaunching at the end of this year/early next year. And my website is colinslevy.com.
Taeler:
Wonderful. Go and find him. You won't regret it. And thanks for listening today.